Although I am sure I will make no friends with this post I have to
say that in my opinion we letterboxers are not doing a very good job
at following the Leave NO Trace ethics. I have seen children of
fellow boxers breaking branches, boxes planted in places that in no
way can be reached without destroying the surrounding vegetation, and
clues so vague you are forced to look under every rock and behind
every tree. And although I am sure we all love the outdoors, everyone
has a different idea of what is harmful and destructive. The parent
who lets their child destroy their surroundings is not going to think
twice about what they are stepping on to get to that box. And even
though I try hard to follow the Leave NO Trace ethics I am not
perfect. I have a few boxes that are probably a little too far off
trail, I will occionally walk around a puddle instead of through it,
and I have been known to pick a single flower or leaf to take home
for ID purposes.
My point is that although we THINK we don't do any damage others
might be shocked. We seem to be under the impression that we can do
no harm just because we like being outdoors. Take a minute to reflect
on how you letterbox and you might be surprised.
As for the horticulturalist, he left the box there for at least a
short time on a trial basis. WE are the ones who did not live up to
his standards!
Leave No Trace Ethics
11 messages in this thread |
Started on 2003-05-23
Leave No Trace Ethics
From: codybcleo (codybcleo@hotmail.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 14:12:26 UTC
Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: richalberth (alberth@mindspring.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 14:38:26 UTC
> ...I will make no friends with this post...
Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
on this thread.
Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
and generally leave it the way you found it.
In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
- Rich
Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
on this thread.
Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
and generally leave it the way you found it.
In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
- Rich
Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: SpringChick (springchick@letterbox-mi.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 15:43:40 UTC
I would have to agree that the degree to which the Leave no Trace
principles are interpreted is subjective.
For those who have never actually been to the LNT website, the
principles of Leave no Trace are:
- Plan Ahead and Prepare
- Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces
- Dispose of Waste Properly
- Leave What You Find
- Minimize Campfire Impacts
- Respect Wildlife
- Be Considerate of Other Visitors
I would add one about being conscious and respectful of the plants
and vegetation in the area where you are, particularly endangered
species.
I don't think that "Leave no Trace" necessarily means to leave no
evidence that you were there, rather leave no negative evidence or
impact. Consider wildlife in the woods... we have all seen deer
paths and branches that have been broken by large animals passing
through an area. Nature is meant to be enjoyed in a hands-on way and
has the ability to repair itself from use and minor damage. It just
takes common sense and respect and a knowledge of your surroundings
and their significance (in all seasons). What is okay one place or
during one season of the year, may not be okay at another.
There is a fine line between placing a box too near a trail that it
will more than likely be discovered accidentally, and placing it so
far out in the woods that significant off-trail walking must be
done. It is nearly impossible for 10 people to walk off trail to a
letterbox in the woods and leave no trace, even though each single
individual probably did leave no trace. I have noticed paths to
boxes that have been found by only a handful of individuals.
Just my 2 cents...
SpringChick
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "richalberth"
wrote:
> > ...I will make no friends with this post...
>
> Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
> on this thread.
>
> Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
> to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
>
> As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
> used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
> burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
> Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
>
> Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
> do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
> and generally leave it the way you found it.
>
> In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
> more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
>
> - Rich
principles are interpreted is subjective.
For those who have never actually been to the LNT website, the
principles of Leave no Trace are:
- Plan Ahead and Prepare
- Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces
- Dispose of Waste Properly
- Leave What You Find
- Minimize Campfire Impacts
- Respect Wildlife
- Be Considerate of Other Visitors
I would add one about being conscious and respectful of the plants
and vegetation in the area where you are, particularly endangered
species.
I don't think that "Leave no Trace" necessarily means to leave no
evidence that you were there, rather leave no negative evidence or
impact. Consider wildlife in the woods... we have all seen deer
paths and branches that have been broken by large animals passing
through an area. Nature is meant to be enjoyed in a hands-on way and
has the ability to repair itself from use and minor damage. It just
takes common sense and respect and a knowledge of your surroundings
and their significance (in all seasons). What is okay one place or
during one season of the year, may not be okay at another.
There is a fine line between placing a box too near a trail that it
will more than likely be discovered accidentally, and placing it so
far out in the woods that significant off-trail walking must be
done. It is nearly impossible for 10 people to walk off trail to a
letterbox in the woods and leave no trace, even though each single
individual probably did leave no trace. I have noticed paths to
boxes that have been found by only a handful of individuals.
Just my 2 cents...
SpringChick
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "richalberth"
wrote:
> > ...I will make no friends with this post...
>
> Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
> on this thread.
>
> Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
> to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
>
> As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
> used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
> burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
> Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
>
> Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
> do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
> and generally leave it the way you found it.
>
> In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
> more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
>
> - Rich
RE: [LbNA] Leave No Trace Ethics
From: Annye Keenberg (annye@sbcglobal.net) |
Date: 2003-05-23 08:51:57 UTC-07:00
As I letterbox with my homeschooled son, I am able to turn the experience
into a lesson on LNT every time (in addition to the dozen or so other things
to be learned from letterboxing). A time that comes to mind is when we were
tracking down a box inside a local botanical garden. We had just left
another garden, deciding that the clues would take us too far out into the
plants for us to continue without damage. At the second garden, we stood
there on the edge of the grass field it indicated to cross, just staring at
the expanse of green and looking for a sign or something that said it was
alright to walk there. In the end, we asked a volunteer at the garden who
told us it was fine. Point being, I think that every step of the way,
whether placing boxes or finding them, we need to stay aware of what we are
doing to the world. Leave no trace behind is a great overriding concept, but
it is nearly impossible to implement. If the dirt is soft, you leave
footprints behind as my ds pointed out to me one day. So we try for leaving
almost no trace behind by watching where we walk, where we hunt and being
willing to walk away when clues seem to encourage us to do environmental
harm.
Annette
into a lesson on LNT every time (in addition to the dozen or so other things
to be learned from letterboxing). A time that comes to mind is when we were
tracking down a box inside a local botanical garden. We had just left
another garden, deciding that the clues would take us too far out into the
plants for us to continue without damage. At the second garden, we stood
there on the edge of the grass field it indicated to cross, just staring at
the expanse of green and looking for a sign or something that said it was
alright to walk there. In the end, we asked a volunteer at the garden who
told us it was fine. Point being, I think that every step of the way,
whether placing boxes or finding them, we need to stay aware of what we are
doing to the world. Leave no trace behind is a great overriding concept, but
it is nearly impossible to implement. If the dirt is soft, you leave
footprints behind as my ds pointed out to me one day. So we try for leaving
almost no trace behind by watching where we walk, where we hunt and being
willing to walk away when clues seem to encourage us to do environmental
harm.
Annette
Re: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: Patti Williamson (smay819@hotmail.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 11:58:04 UTC-04:00
My 9 year old Cub Scout likes to keep the LNT ethics simple....
Leave Only Footprints and Take Only Pictures! (or stamps, I guess!) ;)
(Easy to remember anyway!)
Peppermint Patti and Bunny Man
>From: "richalberth"
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:38:26 -0000
>
> > ...I will make no friends with this post...
>
>Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
>on this thread.
>
>Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
>to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
>
>As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
>used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
>burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
>Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
>
>Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
>do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
>and generally leave it the way you found it.
>
>In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
>more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
>
> - Rich
>
>
Signature By: Retro70sGirl
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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Leave Only Footprints and Take Only Pictures! (or stamps, I guess!) ;)
(Easy to remember anyway!)
Peppermint Patti and Bunny Man
>From: "richalberth"
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:38:26 -0000
>
> > ...I will make no friends with this post...
>
>Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
>on this thread.
>
>Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
>to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
>
>As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
>used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
>burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
>Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
>
>Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
>do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
>and generally leave it the way you found it.
>
>In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
>more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
>
> - Rich
>
>
Signature By: Retro70sGirl
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
[LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: SpringChick (springchick@letterbox-mi.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 16:15:41 UTC
A maxim, which of course, we all violate as we leave behind our
rubbermaid container...
SpringChick
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Patti Williamson"
wrote:
> My 9 year old Cub Scout likes to keep the LNT ethics simple....
>
> Leave Only Footprints and Take Only Pictures! (or stamps, I
guess!) ;)
>
> (Easy to remember anyway!)
>
> Peppermint Patti and Bunny Man
>
>
> >From: "richalberth"
> >Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> >To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
> >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:38:26 -0000
> >
> > > ...I will make no friends with this post...
> >
> >Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
> >on this thread.
> >
> >Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
> >to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
> >
> >As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
> >used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
> >burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
> >Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
> >
> >Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
> >do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
> >and generally leave it the way you found it.
> >
> >In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
> >more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
> >
> > - Rich
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Signature By: Retro70sGirl
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
rubbermaid container...
SpringChick
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Patti Williamson"
> My 9 year old Cub Scout likes to keep the LNT ethics simple....
>
> Leave Only Footprints and Take Only Pictures! (or stamps, I
guess!) ;)
>
> (Easy to remember anyway!)
>
> Peppermint Patti and Bunny Man
>
>
> >From: "richalberth"
> >Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> >To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
> >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:38:26 -0000
> >
> > > ...I will make no friends with this post...
> >
> >Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
> >on this thread.
> >
> >Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
> >to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
> >
> >As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
> >used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
> >burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
> >Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
> >
> >Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
> >do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
> >and generally leave it the way you found it.
> >
> >In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
> >more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
> >
> > - Rich
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Signature By: Retro70sGirl
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: Judi Lapsley Miller (judi@psychokiwi.org) |
Date: 2003-05-23 12:22:16 UTC-04:00
> A maxim, which of course, we all violate as we leave behind our
> rubbermaid container...
True, but we can help restore the karmic balance by taking out more trash
than we leave :-)
I call it litter-boxing...
:-)
Judi
> rubbermaid container...
True, but we can help restore the karmic balance by taking out more trash
than we leave :-)
I call it litter-boxing...
:-)
Judi
[LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: SpringChick (springchick@letterbox-mi.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 16:32:01 UTC
Oh, I agree... as a general rule I think we do more positive than
negative. Just that it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black
for us to preach letter-of-the-law LNT, and then make an exception to
suit our own needs. That is where I think it is subjective to common
sense.
And you know what they say... one man's trash... I am sure for
everyone of us who sees it from this perspective, there are just as
many who consider that leaving behind a rubbermaid container in a
hollow stump in the woods equates to leaving behind trash, whether it
contains a rubber stamp and a log book or a bunch of empty food
wrappers.
SpringChick
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Judi Lapsley Miller"
wrote:
> > A maxim, which of course, we all violate as we leave behind our
> > rubbermaid container...
>
> True, but we can help restore the karmic balance by taking out more
trash
> than we leave :-)
> I call it litter-boxing...
>
> :-)
>
> Judi
negative. Just that it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black
for us to preach letter-of-the-law LNT, and then make an exception to
suit our own needs. That is where I think it is subjective to common
sense.
And you know what they say... one man's trash... I am sure for
everyone of us who sees it from this perspective, there are just as
many who consider that leaving behind a rubbermaid container in a
hollow stump in the woods equates to leaving behind trash, whether it
contains a rubber stamp and a log book or a bunch of empty food
wrappers.
SpringChick
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Judi Lapsley Miller"
> > A maxim, which of course, we all violate as we leave behind our
> > rubbermaid container...
>
> True, but we can help restore the karmic balance by taking out more
trash
> than we leave :-)
> I call it litter-boxing...
>
> :-)
>
> Judi
Re: [LbNA] Leave No Trace Ethics
From: Randy Hall (randy@mapsurfer.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 12:37:52 UTC-04:00
> clues so vague you are forced to look under every rock and behind
> every tree.
I beg to differ with this point. No text forces anyone to do anything.
(Personally, if I can't find the box in 30 seconds or so from what the
text, environment, and internal codes offer, I move on. Hoepfully I've
enjoyed the place and the text already enough).
That's not to say that the point is not a good one -- try make the last
part of the clue _crystal clear to someone who has solved the text_, and
if _you can't solve the text_, _move on_ -- but don't ascribe texts to
have powers that they don't.
Just my non-flame $0.02 from the amateur semiotic lunatic fringe :-)
Cheers
Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: codybcleo (codybcleo@hotmail.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 16:38:59 UTC
Poor choice of words. Perhaps that is why I don't post much. I tend
to move on if it is not clear but my point was that others do not.
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Randy Hall wrote:
>
> > clues so vague you are forced to look under every rock and behind
> > every tree.
>
> I beg to differ with this point. No text forces anyone to do
anything.
>
> (Personally, if I can't find the box in 30 seconds or so from what
the
> text, environment, and internal codes offer, I move on. Hoepfully
I've
> enjoyed the place and the text already enough).
>
> That's not to say that the point is not a good one -- try make the
last
> part of the clue _crystal clear to someone who has solved the
text_, and
> if _you can't solve the text_, _move on_ -- but don't ascribe texts
to
> have powers that they don't.
>
> Just my non-flame $0.02 from the amateur semiotic lunatic fringe :-)
>
> Cheers
to move on if it is not clear but my point was that others do not.
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Randy Hall
>
> > clues so vague you are forced to look under every rock and behind
> > every tree.
>
> I beg to differ with this point. No text forces anyone to do
anything.
>
> (Personally, if I can't find the box in 30 seconds or so from what
the
> text, environment, and internal codes offer, I move on. Hoepfully
I've
> enjoyed the place and the text already enough).
>
> That's not to say that the point is not a good one -- try make the
last
> part of the clue _crystal clear to someone who has solved the
text_, and
> if _you can't solve the text_, _move on_ -- but don't ascribe texts
to
> have powers that they don't.
>
> Just my non-flame $0.02 from the amateur semiotic lunatic fringe :-)
>
> Cheers
Re: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
From: Patti Williamson (smay819@hotmail.com) |
Date: 2003-05-23 14:06:20 UTC-04:00
Oh...haha...that's true. Actually didn't think of that! Duh!
I won't tell him if you won't! ;)
>From: "SpringChick"
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:15:41 -0000
>
>A maxim, which of course, we all violate as we leave behind our
>rubbermaid container...
>
>SpringChick
>
>
>--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Patti Williamson"
> wrote:
> > My 9 year old Cub Scout likes to keep the LNT ethics simple....
> >
> > Leave Only Footprints and Take Only Pictures! (or stamps, I
>guess!) ;)
> >
> > (Easy to remember anyway!)
> >
> > Peppermint Patti and Bunny Man
> >
> >
> > >From: "richalberth"
> > >Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
> > >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:38:26 -0000
> > >
> > > > ...I will make no friends with this post...
> > >
> > >Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
> > >on this thread.
> > >
> > >Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
> > >to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
> > >
> > >As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
> > >used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
> > >burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
> > >Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
> > >
> > >Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
> > >do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
> > >and generally leave it the way you found it.
> > >
> > >In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
> > >more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
> > >
> > > - Rich
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Signature By: Retro70sGirl
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
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I won't tell him if you won't! ;)
>From: "SpringChick"
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:15:41 -0000
>
>A maxim, which of course, we all violate as we leave behind our
>rubbermaid container...
>
>SpringChick
>
>
>--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Patti Williamson"
>
> > My 9 year old Cub Scout likes to keep the LNT ethics simple....
> >
> > Leave Only Footprints and Take Only Pictures! (or stamps, I
>guess!) ;)
> >
> > (Easy to remember anyway!)
> >
> > Peppermint Patti and Bunny Man
> >
> >
> > >From: "richalberth"
> > >Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [LbNA] Re: Leave No Trace Ethics
> > >Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:38:26 -0000
> > >
> > > > ...I will make no friends with this post...
> > >
> > >Lest this turn into a flame war, let's stay brief and polite
> > >on this thread.
> > >
> > >Congrats, I generally agree. It's a contradiction in terms
> > >to leave no trace, *except* the box we are leaving behind :-)
> > >
> > >As a past boy scout, I wouldn't worry about LNT ethics, as we
> > >used to cut switches from green limbs, right off the trees,
> > >burn whatever we could find and left behind biodegratable waste.
> > >Letterboxers in general seem to be less invasive then we were.
> > >
> > >Pragmatically, I take LNT to mean don't break anything, don't
> > >do anything to put furry woodland creatures out of their homes,
> > >and generally leave it the way you found it.
> > >
> > >In the big picture, I take comfort in knowing the rangers did
> > >more than I will ever do by paving parking lots :-)
> > >
> > > - Rich
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Signature By: Retro70sGirl
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
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